Stories from the Usenet by those who have been there done that….got the t-shirt, mug and signed the autographs. My intent is to provide the best of the stories and help, from guys who either do this for a living or have done it for a living. I hope to be able to have not only Former and Current Military pilots but others who provide excellent material for learning about flight sims. Both amusing and informative posts are gonna be here, alot of the time you can learn something from the good natured ribbing that goes on in that wonderful world known as the Uselessnet. I hope y’all gain something from both types.
Index
How to start the F-16 Fighting Falcon by Buzz Hoffman
Normal start? Hot Start? or Hung Start?
P&W or GE engine?
The below should get you to where you are ready to takeoff:
[Pretty simple, really 8) ]
Normal start for the GE is:
1. JFS switch - START 2
2. Throttle - Advance to IDLE at either 20 % rpm min (ambient temp
less than 90 deg F) or max motoring rpm (ambient temp 90 deg F or
greater.)
3. SEC caution light - Off.
4. ENGINE warning light - Off (approx 60 % rpm.)
Once at idle check:
5. JFS switch - Confirm OFF.
6. HYD/OIL PRESS warning light - Off.
7. FUEL FLOW - 700 - 1700 pph.
8. OIL pressure - 15 psi (min.)
9. NOZ POS - Greater than 94 %.
10. RPM - 62 - 80 %.
11. FTIT - 650 deg C or less.
12 HYD PRESS A & B - 2850 - 3250 psi.
13. Six fuel pump lights on.
14. Main fuel shutoff valve (grnd crew) - Check. (If the MFSV is wired
open skip this step.)
15. JFS doors (grnd crew) - Verify closed.
16. Throttle cutoff release - Check.
After engine start:
1. TEST switch panel - Check.
a. PROBE HEAT switch - PROBE HEAT
b. PROBE HEAT switch - TEST.
c. PROBE HEAT switch - OFF.
d. FIRE & OHEAT DETECT button - Test.
e. OXY QTY test switch - Test and check.
f. MAL & IND LTS button - Test.
2. AVIONICS POWER panel - Set:
a. FCC Switch - FCC.
b. SMS Switch - SMS.
c. MFD Switch - MFD.
d. UFC (upfront controls) switch - UFC.
3. INS - Align.
4. SNSR PWR panel.
a. LEFT HDPT switch - As required.
b. RIGHT HDPT switch - As required.
c. FCR switch - FCR.
d. RDR ALT switch - RDR ALT.
5. HUD - As desired.
6. CNI knob - UFC.
7. MFL - Clear.
8. (PW220) SEC - Check after the engine has run at idle
for at least 30 secs. May be delayed until the Before Takeoff
check.
9. (GE100) SEC - May be delayed until the Before Takeoff
check.
10. Flight controls - Cycle.
11. FLCS self-test - Initiate and monitor. (See below:)
12. ECM knobs - As required.
13. SPD BRK switch - Cycle.
14. TWS - As desired.
15. WHEELS down lights - Three green.
16. SAI - Set.
17. FUEL QTY SEL knob - Check.
18. EPU FUEL quantity - 95 - 102 %.
19. Avionics - Program as req’d and verify
(manual or data transfer cartridge.)
20. MFD’s - As desired.
21. VHF radio - as desired.
After FLCS self-test completed:
22. Trim - check.
23. (D) FLCS override - Check.
24. MPO - Check.
25. Operate controls - All surfaces respond normally;
no FLCS lights on.
26. AR system (if req’d) - Check.
27. Brakes - Check both channels; then return to
CHAN 1.
28. Anti-ice - Check.
29. EPU GEN and EPU PMG lights - Confirm off.
30. Ground safety pins (grnd crew) - Remove.
31. Intercomm (grnd crew) - Disconnect.
32. Avionic BIT’s - As desired.
33. Seat - Adjust to design eye.
Before Taxi:
1. Canopy - Close and lock.
2 HAVE QUICK radio - Set and check (if req’d.)
3. Altimeter and altitude indications - Set and check.
4. Exterior lights - As req’d.
5. INS knob - NAV.
6. Chocks (grnd crew) - Remove.
Taxi:
1. Brakes and NWS - Check.
2. Heading - Check.
3. Flight instruments - Check for proper operation.
Before takeoff:
1. ALT FLAPS switch - NORM.
2. Trim - Check pitch and yaw trim centered and
roll trim as req’d.
3. (C) (DF) ENG CONT switch PRI.
4. (DR) ENG CONT switch. NORM (guard down.)
5. Speedbrakes - Closed.
6. Canopy - Close, lock, light off.
7. IFF - Set and check.
8. External tanks (if installed) - Verify feeding.
9. STORES CONFIG switch - As req’d.
10. GND JETT ENABLE swtich - As req’d.
11. Harness, leads and anti-g system - Check.
12. EPU - Check.
13. PROBE HEAT switch - PROBE HEAT.
14. Ejection safety lever - Arm (down.)
15. Flight controls - Cycle.
16. OIL pressure - Check psi.
17. All warning and caution lights - Check.
18. Adjustable sliding holder (when utility light is
not in use) - (C) DF Full forward, rotated cw, and
secured.
FLCS Self-Test:
(Note - SERVO RESET means position the SERVO
switch to RESET while holding FCS CAUTION button
depressed. ADV means advance momentarily.)
Test # Switch Action Steps to: Indications
—————————————————————————-
——–
LE FLAPS AUTO FLT CONT SYS
TRIMS CENTER caution light
off
SERVO RESET
ELEC RESET
—————————————————————————-
——–
SELF TEST TEST 00 T.O./LAND
CONFIG warning
light on
—————————————————————————-
——–
00 ADV SLEW ADV 00 MAL light on
ADV SLEW ADV Twice 43 STBY GAINS
light on in test
No. 1
—————————————————————————-
——–
43 ADV SLEW ADV 48
—————————————————————————-
——–
48 ADV SLEW ADV 51 P, R, Y, 5
SERVOS, FLT
CONT SYS
lights on
—————————————————————————-
——–
51 SERVO RESET 54 All FLCS
caution lights out
———————
ELEC RESET P, R, Y, 5
ADV SLEW ADV SERVOS, FLT
CONT SYS
lights on
—————————————————————————-
——–
SERVO RESET All FLCS
caution
ELEC RESET lights out
—————————————————————————-
———
END SELF TEST OFF
OF
TEST
—————————————————————————-
———
Note - 54, above is part of the Expanded FLCS self-test which
is normally not needed so I’ve not posted it here.
>PS! And while I’m at it; How does one *stop” the plane as well ?<
After landing:
1. PROBE HEAT switch - OFF.
2. ECM power - Off.
3. Speedbrakes - Close.
4. Ejection safety lever - Safe (up.)
5. IFF MASTER knob - STBY.
6. IFF M-4 CODE switch - HOLD.
7. LANDING TAXI lights - As req’d.
8. MASTER ZEROIZE switch - As req’d.
9. Canopy handle - Up.
10. Armament switches - Off, safe, or normal.
Prior to engine shutdown:
1. EPU safety pin (grnd crew) - In.
2. INS - Check.
3. MFL - Record (As req’d.)
4. AVTR power switch - OFF.
5. CNI knob - BACKUP.
6. TWS switches - OFF.
7. INS knob - OFF.
8. PROBE HEAT switch - PROBE HEAT and
then OFF to allow check of heaters after shutdown.
9. Avionics - OFF.
Engine Shutdown:
1. Throttle - OFF.
After main generator drops off line:
2. EPU GEN and EPU PMG lights - Confirm off.
3. MAIN PWR switch - OFF.
4. Oxygen hose/survival kit straps/lapbelt/
g-suit hose/vest hose - Disconnect/stow.
5. Canopy - Open.
That should do it.
Buzz HoffmanTale of a Military controller
Hehe…”amusing” isn’t the word I would have used at the time, but with a
decade’s distance, yeah, it was…interesting.
Please share some more of your episodes with us.
Okay, I’m a sucker for an audience.
It was a crappy day. The weather was total horesehit IMC, planes were
stacked from FL200 to FL240 at Heidleberg fix, all waiting for a High-Tacan
into the base and all starting to grumble about declaring minimum fuel.
Pop-up IFR flights of F-16’s kept appearing randomly across the sky, ignoring
the published procedures and demanding immediate vectors to a full stop. Add
in a single Aero Club pilot making ILS approaches into the Zweibrucken GCA,
and it was just a pretty nasty time to be a RAPCON controller.
I wasn’t the only person feeling the stress. The West Approach controller
was rocking back and forth in his seat as if he were holding an invisible
infant, and the PAR controller’s ashtray was stacked high as he calmly called
out two-degree-increment-vectors to touchdown.
The crew chief dashed from station, trailing his headset connection to the overhead travelling track
like some kind of vinyl umbilical cord, his face tense. “Let’s stay calm
about this, people!” he said, his voice an octave too high. If I hadn’t been
so stressed myself I would have started laughing.
I had lots of reasons to be tense. I was in training for my five level
(which, to the non-veteran, means “I was still in my apprenticeship”)on the
East Approach sector of Ramstein’s airspace. It was a fairly simple position
to run, but with the combination of traffic, weather, and a complete asshole
of a trainer, I was definitely on edge.
“Okay,” my trainer said, leaning back in his chair, “You got the picture?”
I looked at my AN/GPN-20 scope and assessed the situation. Just like a
pilot, a controller’s ability to maintain situational awareness (SA) could
make or break their ability to do their job. My situation was pretty much
under control. I had five planes stacked in holding at Heidleberg, waiting
for clearance to take the High-Tacan into Ramstein. Some fancy coordination
with West had moved some F-16s right in to the arrival pattern, and the aero
club pilot was more or less just bugging Zweibrucken now. As soon as the
C-141 on high-tacan had made a little more headway I would drop in the next
plane in holding onto the approach and lower the stack. Busy…but
manageable.
“Yeah, I’ve got the picture,” I replied.
“Yeah, good,” my trainer said. He wasn’t even looking. Instead he
focused his attention on buffing the shine on his plastic shoes.
“Ramstein Approach, Turkish Air Force One ni-ain two-ah, wit yu at
Heidleberg,”
My trainer and I both perked up. It wasn’t that the plane was a surprise to
us; for reasons that I won’t go into here, Ramstein used to constantly have
pop-up IFR traffic arrive. No, the reason that we both got concerned was
that there was no transponder tag from that area that corresponded with that
call.
“Turkish Air Force 192, Ramstein Approach, say aircaft type, number in
flight, and position?”
“Uh…Ramstein, I am an F-104, single ship, and I am at Heidleberg.” The
pilot sounded annoyed that he had to repeat himself.
“He doesn’t know where he is,” my trainer complained. He reached down to key
his mike but I beat him to the call.
“Turkish Air Force 192, Ramstein Approach, verify your bearing and DME to
Ramstein.”
My trainer glared at me. It was a non-standard procedure. I didn’t much care
what he thought; I needed to keep my planes safe, and if finding this plane
meant making the pilot tell me his position in a different manner, so be it.
“Ramstein Approach, Turkish Air Force 192, I am at…” He read his bearing
and DME off to me.
Now this was getting interesting. Those were right…but there was no
transponder code waiting there…
Then I saw it. An amorphous amber blur oozed across the screen with each
three-second sweep, edging its way slowly towards the Heidleberg fix point.
A “primary contact” in ATC parlance. This was the actual radar return from
an aircraft in the sky. Even though controllers were taught to control these
targets, most of us had the unfortunte habit of fixating on the transponder
tags of our planes.
I smiled. One mystery solved.”Turkish Air Force 192, Ramstein Approach, reset squawk, squawk 4712,” I said.
“What?” It took me a moment to realize that the pilot wasn’t going to say anything
more. “Turkish Air Force 192, Ramstein Approach, reset transponder, squawk
4…7…1…2.” I tried to keep my voice patient.
“Unable, Ramstein. No transponder.”
I sighed. Okay…a primary target only. I immediately called for a fifteen
degree turn, declared “radar contact” when he did so, and gave him the weather
into Ramstein. Finally, after clearing the next plane in the stack — another
141 — onto the High-Tacan, I cleared him to hold at Heidleberg at FL240.
“Roger, Ramstein, cleared High-Tacan approach,” the pilot read back,
completely calm.
“Negative,” I snapped out immeditely. “Turkish Air Force 192, your are not
cleared to hold at Heidleberg, flight level two four zero. Do you copy?”
“Roger, Ramstein,” the pilot replied, “Cleared for the approach.”
“Turkish Air Force 192, Ramstein Approach,” my trainer said moving up beside
me. “Be advised we have a trainee in position. Sir, you’re not cleared for
the approach. You are cleared to hold at Heidleberg, FL240, left turns.” He
shot me a glare as he finished the transmission.
“Ramstein, I understand,” the pilot said, “I am cleared approach.”
I couldn’t restrain a satisfied ‘ha-ha-motherf****r’ glance back at my
trainer. Then I looked back at the scope.
Sure enough, TAF was passing Heidleberg and was descending towards Ramstein
on a profile that matched the High-Tacan. At least, I *assumed* he was
descending; without a mode C transponder, I had no idea what his altitude
really was.
At that point, all hell broke lose. I broke out the C-141 on approach and
vectored him back towards Heidleberg, while West Approach started coordinating
his pattern to make room for this one frigging plane.
“I’ve got planes on PAR, here!” The PAR controller snapped. He’d suddenly
started tapping his left palm against his thigh in a nervous rythm.
“Can’t you break him out!” West Approach snapped. I glanced around and saw
that he was sweating — actually *sweating* — in position.
“Nope,” my trainer growled. “Looks like my boy cleared him for the approach.”
“I *didn’t* freaking clear him!” I snapped.
“Well STOP him, then!” he replied.
I tried. Believe me, I tried. Despite numerous calls, despite constant
reminders that he had NOT been cleared approach, the Turkish Air Force F-104
barreled down the pipe and into Arrival’s airspace. He then changed
frequencies without requesting permission, and entered a left-hand overhead
pattern on Runway 27, a procedure *specifically listed* as unavailable for
the AFD entry at Ramstein due to a ridge line in that direction. Then he
touched down, followed the wrong “Follow Me” truck, and was finally eased
into parking when the right truck found him.
And what happened to the pilot?
Nothing. Not a damned thing.
Why?
Well, Ramstein was a headquarters base. For reasons that remain fuzzy to me
to this day, it was deemed “unnecessary” to take any punitive action against
this pilot.
As for me, well, my trainer wrote me up for performing a non-standard
procedure that might have contributed to the incident, as well as possibly
clearing him for the approach.
After reviewing the tapes, my crew chief out my trainers report and
took me out for a beer. The last I heard, the man that was my
trainer is still in, and is chief controller at a RAPCON out East.
And, not that it really matters, but I was three months shy of my twenty-first
birthday when all of this happened. Man…that’s a day I doubt that I’ll ever forget.
Of course, it’s not like that one time…But I’ve wasted too much time today as it is.
> Would you still be an AF controller or perhaps a Fed now?
Nope. Got out in ‘90 to pursue a degree in Airfield Management at the
University of North Dakota. After UND refused to take ANY of my 65 Community
College of the Air Force credits (”We don’t recognize it as a properly
accredited institution”), informed me that I had to take their basic ATC
courses, and demanded that I had to take their ten-hour “flight test course”
to “verify” my private pilot’s license (for the low, low cost of $75.00/hour)
I decided to hang up the mike for good. I’m in computers now, with a Liberal
Arts degree…but I miss the aviation field every waking moment.
Well, I’ve seen an F-16A land gear up (pilot error) on his ECM Pod, he
made an AB recovery, got it airborne and landed normally. We all joked
that we hated carrying the pods and this was the logical way to get
rid of them.
What? No “Cleared to Slide-and-Go,” jokes? ;-)
Tony “Boogaman” Bruno
Recollections from F-16C Instructor Pilot
Okay boys and girls, I asked a buddy of mine that doesn’t play flight
sims to answer some questions. He is a former F-16C Instructor Pilot,
and was driving a HumVee in Saudi during Desert Storm.
The following are a series of questions I was was “tumbleweed” about.
I’ll be more than happy to submit NG questions to him…realize he no
longer flies the C model.
1] Which Blocks did you fly and where?
Block 10 (15S avionics) MacDill 86-87 RTU
Block 32 Luke 87 C Model Conversion
Block 32 Hahn 87-90 Nuclear Ops
Block 42 Luke 91-92 Requal, LANTIRN
Block 42, 40, 50 Shaw 92-94 LANTIRN/HARM/Mav
2] You mentioned that the Block 42s were decertified to haul LANTIRN
because of the lower thrust motors. Can you tell me which bases had
Blk 42s? How about the magnitude of the performance loss?
Luke (RTU), Shaw. I don’t remember if Osan had 42s for a while or
not. The problem with the 42s is that airspeed would decrease below
300 kts during a 30 pop even when you used burner during the entire
maneuver when combat configured (119 or 131 pod, 2 bags, Mk 82s or
84s, 2x LANTIRN pods). I don’t know if they actually ‘decertified’
the 42s for LANTIRN but that was the discussion at the time and that
it was an issue being worked at TAC/ACC Weapons.
3] Is there the big thrust discrepancy betweeen the Blk 50’s -129 and
the Blk 52’s -229?
I don’t remember talk of any significant thrust difference though I
never flew 52s.
4] Did the EEC/BUC feature remain on all P&W motors, while the PRI/SEC
was a GE thang?
I don’t know for sure.
HARM stuff…
5] I’ve seen photos of Spang Blk 30s carrying HARMs, is there an
unclassified answer to how they would employ them?
The Spang Block 30s flew paired with an F-4G, targeted whatever radar
the WSO told them to and launched on the wing. They were basically
just an extra trailer of missiles for the F-4G to use.
6] Any preflight programming (ala Shrikes) or just point the nose in
the general direction and shoot?
There are pre-programmed target priority lists that are downloaded
into the missile.
7] Or…could you program something into the SMS inflight for a
HARM…would you need to?
Block 30s could program the target lists and launch on a bearing.
Block 50s could use HAS (HARM As a Sensor) and target active radars.
Of course thay also had the HTS (HARM Targeting System) pod
which provided about 75% of an F-4G capability.
PGM stuff…
8] Would every sqdn pogue certify to fly HARM and PGM missions?
Everyone would get qualified to do HARM. Only a percentage of guys
would do low altitude LANTIRN/LGBs due to the currency requirements
vs. training assets available. Everyone would do med altitude
LANTIRN/LGBs. This of course was the state in the early 90’s when I
was flying.
9] Would you train/employ EOGBs and LGBs?
LGBs only at Shaw.
10] Could you “self designate” for LGBs?
Yes though it was only practical at med altitude.
11] Are all Mavericks considered EOGBs (even the IIR stuff)?
We never considered them EOGBs, they were a separate weapons
category/qualification. We did only Mavericks (no other EOGBs) with
the Block 42s, 40s and 50s at Shaw.
Recce stuff…(hey, be nice!) the boys at Richmond have that DOC…
12] Any clues on that system?
Sorry.
13a] Things I’ve noticed in the game, perhaps you can comment. As I
said it models a Blk 52, in a hard turn I get max G (on the limiter)
above 380 KCAS or so, and the beast accelerates in full AB.
It would accelerate at low alt with a clean jet, it would maintain
airspeed clean at med alt or low alt with a center bag.
13b] On the limiter below 380 KCAS or so, it goes to the AOA limit and
bleeds airspeed like crazy even in full AB. Make any sense what I’m
saying?
Below 380 it would bleed airspeed but it would be fairly slow until
you got below 300 or so. Altitude of course makes the most signifcant
difference for the energy levels. Also depends on configuration and
to a much lesser extent, internal fuel, outside air temp (winter vs
summer).
Robey
Redshift’s excellent post about Dissimilar A2A between Harriers and F-15’s
OK OK OK I admit my memory was faulty about the outcome of the Sea Harrier v. F15 dissimilar A2A (it was only once, and 7-1 to the Harrier). I plead senility, the fact that I last read the book about 3 years ago, and obviously an overblown sense of patriotism. Here is the real scoop from Commander Ward’s book “Sea Harrier over the Falklands”. This would have been about 1979 I guess, very early into the commissioning of the Sea Harrier FRS1. [any gross typos are due to my scanner / OCR] ##############################################
Myself, Morts and a legendary character called Dave Braithwaite, flew our shiny new jets to the Aggressor base to do battle. There we were warmly welcomed by the Aggressors and three days of intensive fighter combat training began. USAF Aggressor Squadrons consist of specially selected USAF fighter pilots and were formed specifically to give the best possible fighter combat training to USAF squadrons throughout the world, and to NATO squadrons in Europe. They are highly regarded for their professionalism and expertise. They avow no bullshit in their post-flight debriefs and their simple aim is to improve the fighting capability of the squadrons that they work with.
On the first day, the two teams briefed each other about their own aircraft characteristics (the Aggressors flew the F5E) and then got airborne for 1-v-1 fighter combat. The F5E is even smaller than the SHAR, turns much better and can accelerate to supersonic speed extremely quickly in a nose low situation. Its armament is the same as that of the SHAR. Sidewinder missiles and guns. The results of the first three 1-v-1 combat sessions were: I had four kills and none against; Morts had three kills and one against; Dave scored two against two. The Aggressor pilots were astonished.
Later that day, One of their staff pilots approached Mortimer. Jesus Christ. Morts! Who are you guys? What’s going on? Have you been sent here to evaluate us?’ Morts assured him that that was not the case. The Aggressors were intrigued that a fresh-from-formation squadron team could do so well against them. and so we agreed to try some special combat evaluation sorties with them to give them a better chance of understanding the SHAR. ‘What I suggest we do,. I briefed. ‘is set up each combat with your F5s in a position of clear advantage over us. That is to say you can take up the “perch’. at about 2000 feet above us, about 800 yards on the beam and 2000 yards back. We shall commence each combat when you turn in On us. We’ll be watching you and when you turn in we’ll counter [turn] hard in towards you. At this point you will be able to track us and attempt to get an acquisition with your missiles. As you come into missile range. we shall deny you a shot by hiding our jet exhaust from your missile. In the SHAR that is relatively easy to do: we just drop about 30 degress of nozzle. This will pitch Our nose up instantaneously about 20 degrees, diffuse the hot gases of our exhausts and hide the exhaust from you by placing our wing between your missile and the source of heat. You will still be able to track us with your nose and by this time you should have a lot of overtake, that is. you will be closing in rapidly towards guns range. Before you get to guns range we will commence a high-G braking stop barrel roll which you won’t be able to follow. This will allow us to roll over you and decelerate to a position behind you where you will be in our gunsights. That’s the aim of the game, gentlemen; let’s go and see if it works, and see whether you can come up with an answer to our moves.’
The combats went as planned with about the same ratio of kills as on the first sortie. Missile shots were denied to the F5s and as my own opponent closed in towards guns range I pulled the joystick fully back in my midriff and used a combination of aileron and then full rudder to corkscrew the jet into the vertical. Breathing hard from the excitement, I relaxed the flight controls and swung the nozzles down and forward into the full braking stop position. Suddenly the F5 was no longer pointing at me but was being sucked and pulled down below me. Nozzles aft again and full rudder, aileron and elevator to pass through the inverted and then roll down behind the F5. The fight was over. Either with missile or gun, the Freedom Fighter was finished.
On day two of the detachment I flew against the Aggressor Boss and was beaten in one of the four combats that took place. The fight had progressed until both jets were near to base height, and slow. It was almost stalemate and in that situation I should have walked it. But one of the F5’s specialities is being moderately capable in the slow-speed regime, and although it can’t fly as slow as the SHAR it can manoeuvre more freely at a slightly higher speed. Our two jets were crossing over each other in our attempts to point at the other aircraft and shoot (a manoeuvre known as horizontal scissors) when I momentarily let my jet’s nose drop below the horizon. I had briefed my team that on no account must they let this happen against the F5 or that fight would be lost. I was furious with myself as I had wanted to return to Yeovilton with a clean sheet. Nevertheless, it was a highly successful first look at dissimilar combat, with the team kill ratios against one of the best outfits around being 12:I, 9:3 and 6:6. making an aggregate kill rate of 27 to 10 in the SHAR’s favour.
All the lads on the IFTU were delighted and I submitted a short paper to the MOD to report the detail of the Aggressor visit. It was an honest report. and it complimented the Aggressors on their professionalism and integrity But it pulled no punches on the score-line, or the capabilities of the Sea Jet. As a matter of internal MOD courtesy , a copy of the report was passed to the appropriate RAF Harrier desk and from there it was passed on up the line to the hierarchy. It was apparent that the courtesy was neither welcomed nor honoured at higher level because within days of the initial report being submitted, an Air Vice-Marshal stormed into the Aggressor Squadron Commander’s office at Alconbury, threw a copy of my report down on the table, and asked, .Have you seen this. Colonel?’ Obviously. the Crabs didn’t relish the idea of the SHAR being a successful fighter and were presumably trying to question the validity of the report. This rather underhand intrusion caused unnecessary embarrassment all round and was a most unwelcome gesture. The Boss of the Aggressors was rather upset by the incident. but his staff did get in touch with me by phone to say that the report was a good one, and valid.
A few days later, the telephone on my desk at Yeovilton rang ‘Good morning, Sir. This is the F15 Eagle Squadron at Bitburg in Germany Could I speak with Commander Sharkey, please?’ ‘Certainly! Speaking!. ‘Sir, I hear you had a good experience against the Aggressor Squadron at Alconbury, recently. Is that correct?’ ‘Yes. that’s right.’ ‘Well, Sir, if you”re happy with the idea we’d be delighted to come across to Somerset to do some combat with you. We’d bring over four F15s to see how you get on against Our jet. We hear you did pretty good against the Aggressors.’ ‘That would be splendid!’ I replied. ‘We would love to see you here at Yeovilton and to fly with you. Just let us know when you expect to arrive and we’ll be at your pleasure for the duration.’ Word had got around fast and the elite of the USAF in Europe couldn’t resist the chance to see how good the SHAR was - and whether Alconbury was just a flash in the pan.
True to their word, the Bitburg boy, arrived at Yeovilton with four of their magnificent fighters for a day’s Air Combat Manoeuvring. It was agreed that the aircraft should operate in pairs against each other , which brought fighter tactics really into play (as opposed to just matching aircraft for aircraft, pilot for pilot. in a 1-v-1 fight). The visitors were fully equipped with their radar and were simulating Sparrow AIM-7E missiles, Sidewinders and guns. The SHARS were without radar but were fitted with their radar warning receivers and were simulating Sidewinders and guns The two combat sessions were set up over North Devon and the Bristol Channel, with the dissimilar pairs running in towards each other from a distance of about 40 nautical miles.
My team were given radar direction from ground radar by a brilliant Direction Officer of many years’ experience named Harry O’Grady Having spent years flying the Phantom and using the Sparrow missile, which has an excellent head-on firing capability, I knew how to deny the F15 a valid Sparrow shot from head-on and had briefed my pilots accordingly. The tactic worked well. There were no head-on claims from the F-l5s as they ran in and, as the two aircraft types entered the same airspace, fully developed combat began. Initially, the F-15s had the advantage. Their radars pinpointed the SHARs and directed their pilots’ eyes on to the smaller jets. The SHARs flew at about 12,000 feet, which was where we wanted to meet the opposition, and so the F-15s came in from very high level (30.000 feet plus). rolling over and looping down towards the stem of our Sea Jet formation This was when the SHAR was most vulnerable. It was essential that visual contact was made.
Morts came to the rescue. ‘High in the 6 o’clock, Boss! Break port and up! They are about 3 miles and closing fast!’ The aircraft shuddered in the hard turn with the nose rising to meet the threat. ‘Tallyho! On both! I’m flying through the right-hand man and reversing on him. Your tail is clear.’ The nose of the SeaJet passed through the vertical` with my head strained round as far as it would go to keep tabs on the F-15 which, feeling threatened. had engaged burners and had also pulled vertically upwards and over the top (about 5000 feet above me) As the F-15 came down the other side of the vertical manoeuvre he found me still pointing at him all the way. Trying the same move twice was not a good idea` but that’s what he did. I predicted the move, sliced my nose early through the vertical and found myself sitting astern the two white-hot plumes at the back of the US fighter. ‘Fox Two away!’ I called, simulating the release of the Sidewinder missile. Morts fared just as well. The detailed post-flight debriefs showed a 7 to 1 valid kill claim by the SHARs. The Alconbury experience had been no flash in the pan. The Sea Harrier had really arrived on the fighter combat scene.
Redshift. Su27 FAQ: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/redshift/su27faq.html
Robey talks about the Attitudes of Flight Test Engineers compared to RLtm Pilots.
Hornet 3 Korea flight model is crap From: Robey Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:23:13 -0500 Stanley postulated:
> > DUUUH! I’m not suggesting they get a Pitts pilot to test an F-16 flight
> model. I’m suggesting maybe they should use a member of the USAF
> ThunderBirds, or someone who has aerobatics experience in the F-16,
> instead of just using someone who has only had combat experience.
Stan buddy, seriously no offense intended (and none perceived on my part). The Thunderbirds fly the same maneuvers albeit a little lower, that a standard issue F-16 pilot does. In fact, if you listen to the narrator at one of their shows, he emphasizes that point, something like, “All of these maneuvers are taught to every USAF pilot.” Except for slow rolls with your gear hangin’…but you catch my drift. They’re very good, but many times they’re A-10 pilots evaluated after just a few rides in a two seater…BINGO instant F-16 pilot (yep they go thru part of RTU then)…Tom Weiler (85-87) and Joe Bulmer (87-89) are two that I know personally. And if you flew BFM against any F-16 guy you couldn’t tell who had been a T-bird or Agressor, they die just as often as the rest of us.
Now as far as exploring the edges of the envelope…granted that is what test pilots get paid to do. They fly specially instrumented jets with little things like parachute mortars to save their ass if they “depart.” Those guys are also engineers by education, geez
I’m just a political science/russian language guy, but I flew FCFs. I have my own thoughts about adequately qualified pilots testing flight sims. Sim fans like you and me spend a great deal of time and money on our hobby. But non-fan real pilots “blow off” games because of their obvious limitations…using a keyboard, everything in a 17″ monitor, no sweat rolling into your eyes as the screen goes dark, dirt and crap doesn’t fly up into your face when you go “negative,” no feel to things like trim, traps don’t give you a bad case of ‘roids…ad nauseum…
I would say 99.9% of military aviators fall into this category. And I’d bet that more than half of those folks actually equate our hobby to 6 year old boys playing with plastic armymen. Sean Long and ‘Pips’ are very rare fighter pilots. So now you’ve got to find that miniscule percentage of test pilots that actually derive pleasure from playing a computer game about flying, good luck! Unfortunately for you, you’re stuck with guys like me. You are indeed correct…I’m not a test pilot nor an “aerobatic” former F-16 guy. Hey…how about a new game called test pilot? Edwards and Pax River….but just to make things interesting, if you break the jet then your motherboard and video card fry…
Robey
A Former F-16 pilot Robey and Current F-15E pilot Sean Long “Discuss A2A”
Sean Long (F-15 E driver) Jumps into a thread questioning Viper drivers heritage…. This is multiple parts…
Robey (former F4, F-16 current Delta Driver) dies a disgrace to the motherland
Robey wrote:
>
> That flaming pink flamingo pilot wrote:
> >
> > Show off…
>
> It humbles me to reveal that I did not get a valid shot at them. The
> bastiges escaped. We were glorious red air defenders of the empire, they
> were blue strikers being escorted by Rhodans.
>
> I was the only guy that even had a contact on them, very interesting
> doing a vertical conversion from 10k’ to 500′…fangs out…hair on fire
> (I had hair then). ..but I failed in my defense of the motherland. Ohhh
> the agony of my shame.
So who got ya? The Hornets or the rabid Rhodans? Don’t even tell me you got shot by an F-15 makin an unobserved entry :)
BTW, the last redair flight I had against our brothers in the 389th resulted in me getting one unobserved entry kill on an F-16, and then returning to gawk at my flight lead’s flaming wreckage, managed to get missiles away at 2 more before they gunned my brains out… Something about training verification of AIM-120 vs. AIM-9 shots and needing to switch recorded displays for debrief in the F-16 helped a bit apparently… But I wouldn’t know/care much about that :)
Sean Long
WB: -eagl-
Usin mom’s acct…
Robey dies a disgrace to the motherland Part 2
I had waxed eloquently in this manner…
> > It humbles me to reveal that I did not get a valid shot at them. The
> > bastiges escaped. We were glorious red air defenders of the empire, they
> > were blue strikers being escorted by Rhodans.
> >
> > I was the only guy that even had a contact on them, very interesting
> > doing a vertical conversion from 10k’ to 500′…fangs out…hair on fire
> > (I had hair then). ..but I failed in my defense of the motherland. Ohhh
> > the agony of my shame.
To which Diane Long’s offspring, some snot nosed, loo-tenant fighter
pilot, completely lacking any social graces surmised that I had ‘died.’
> So who got ya? The Hornets or the rabid Rhodans? Don’t even tell me
> you got shot by an F-15 makin an unobserved entry :)
Die? ppfffttt, I didn’t die…at least nobody claimed the carcass. No I failed merely by letting the USN penetrate the airspace of my
motherland. Thus I am ashamed.
> BTW, the last redair flight I had against our brothers in the 389th
> resulted in me getting one unobserved entry kill on an F-16…
Folks, if Schlong’s lips are moving…[he must be …] a MudHen with an unobserved entry…Just saw the latest Bond flick…those Lakenheath MudHens sure looked good. I think one of them had your name on it 8-). The UK would be one sweet assignment…fly up to Scotland and look for Nessie at 200′. Tons of DACT…most of it unbriefed and unauthorized! Only drawback would be that new phallic extension of an automobile you purchased.
Robey
A short post on going against F-15’s by Robey
“Real world” Viper…Falcon…
Bubba wrote:
> Figures that you called yourself “Target driver” Robey!!
Yeah Bubba, you know the reason 8-) but for those that don’t…there are
two kinds of airplanes…Fighters and Targets.
> I bet you kicked the shit out of those Eagle drivers when you flew right?
> Sean, how about it?
>
> Bubba hehehehe..
Bubba my hero, you’re not stirring the pot, you’re taunting.
Ummm if I survived to the merge (”double pump…in the
notch…grinder…”) then I never got my brains gunned out. Schlong
flies a rather large airplane, if they go planform (wing flash) then boy
you can get a tally a long way out.
The Eagle’s radar had so many more features than our little APG-66.
Those guys can have multiple waypoints (such as depicting the MOA)
displayed on their CRT and other gee whiz stuff that presented a
fantastic tactical picture (meaning SA). We could display one point and
then we would have to sample every contact just to find the right ones
in the airspace. You don’t want to intercept some MD-80 two thousand
feet above the top of the MOA 8-).
This was posted by Robey….(the sig was gone in its travels added by PD)
Robey & Sean Long discuss fuel economy in a F-16…A Discussion about the merits of Carrying Fuel in a F-16 part 1 of 3
Robey responding to a certain Pink Flamingo pilot thus spoke….
That really Infamous Flamin’ Pink Flamingo wrote:
>
> Well those F-16’s are such cute little airplanes…. Do they really
> carry fuel as well….or do they have to decide to either carry fuel or
> bullets…hehehe.
Well no, we had to decide if we wanted to look good or get the job done.
Heck, the less gas you carry the shorter your sortie…ergo, the quicker
you get to do your real AF job (your non-flying additional duty) or go
to the bar on Friday afternoon.
[Let me setup my following statement: When Schlong lands his MudHen with
ONLY one engine operating…he calls that an EMERGENCY….so knowing
that, I say with tonque firmly in cheek those of you that don’t know
either of us] We (aka girly men) were all awarded Air Medals for
heroically saving the airplane everytime we actually returned, afterall
we landed with only one engine. [Imagining Papa Doc exclaiming right
now…”Gosh, where do we find such aviation gods?”]
We now return to the normal enlightened posting that constitute this
thread. WARNING: Anything Schlong retaliates with, is merely jealous
venting.
Cheers Robey
Sean Long responds…. Part 2 of 3
Why do F-15s have tail hooks?
From: Sean Long Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 15:53:35 -0700
Robey wrote:
[snip]
Truth. Except that over Iraq, the F-16’s spent more time on the boom
than they did on station. Not their fault exactly… They WERE
carrying a massive loadout (for them) of 2 fuel tanks, a pod of some
sort, and 2 whole missiles. Musta been hell for those guys getting that
thing off the ground. Oh yea. No bar to go to in Saudi :(
> [Let me setup my following statement: When Schlong lands his MudHen with
> ONLY one engine operating…he calls that an EMERGENCY….so knowing
> that, I say with tonque firmly in cheek those of you that don’t know
> either of us] We (aka girly men) were all awarded Air Medals for
> heroically saving the airplane everytime we actually returned, afterall
> we landed with only one engine. [Imagining Papa Doc exclaiming right
> now…”Gosh, where do we find such aviation gods?”]
Again, truth. The F-16 is an airborn emergency procedure the moment the
gear is up. Thank goodness congress had the foresight to order a couple
thousand of them as opposed to the 100 or so F-15E’s.
> We now return to the normal enlightened posting that constitute this
> thread. WARNING: Anything Schlong retaliates with, is merely jealous
> venting.
Robey is just pissed ’cause not only did I tell him how loft bombing can
be done in WB without advanced avionics, I also told him about the 2
F-16’s that got stuck halfway across the pond and ended up tagging along
with our F-15E’s to Saudi. We simply downloaded our fuel tanks and
attached the F-16’s on stations 2 and 8 :) They make nice “smart”
weapons I suppose…
*pops speedbrake, flat-planes the rhodan, watches viper spit on past
cursing his AOA limiter, grabs a quick vert-scan lock and sends an aim-9
on it’s way*
Sean Long
WB: -eagl-
–
Robey running on fumes… Attempts to turn the tables…Part 3 of 3
Why do F-15s have tail hooks?
From: (Robey)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 00:48:17 +0100
Schlong amusingly chortled thusly…
> Truth. Musta been hell for those guys getting that thing off the ground.
That’s why it’s called the bowling ball configuration…
> Again, truth. The F-16 is an airborn emergency procedure the moment the
> gear is up.
And thus the Air Medals were richly deserved…thank you for your support.
> Robey is just pissed ’cause not only did I tell him how loft bombing can
> be done in WB without advanced avionics,
Well…got any other suggestions for trolling for MudHen Drivers?
> I also told him about the 2 F-16’s…[snip typical loo…tenant chest puffing]
> They [the afore mentioned premier dog fighter of the USAF] make nice “smart”weapons I suppose…
True…provided the green stuff doesn’t go away and then I’m dialing in a
mil setting with the Red reticle…every single bomb I ever dropped ‘hit’
the ground. Of this I am certain.
> *pops speedbrake,
Okay boys and girls, here is a very basic lesson when fighting an Eagle or
a MudHen…if you’re saddling up for your standard gun’s tracking solution
and you see that HUGE speedbrake extend, well that’s time to merely go
Idle, Boards and roll your lift vector to “the elbow.” You are now
1500-2000′ behind and below in a “nose off ” position of advantage. You are
still driving the fight. The dreaded MudHen lives for another 20 seconds
(praying for his flight lead to shoot the offending Lawn Dart) as you
smoothly reposition and put pipper burns on the cranium of the Driver while
the Guy Telling the Pilot What to Do screams, “Jink!…”
> watches viper spit on past cursing his AOA limiter,
Ummm that was only against Hornets…8-) But this is an excellent tactic
against my MD-80. Heck any turn over 1.3 G’s will work on me now. Seems the
Flight Attendants frown upon having their pantyhose rolled down by high G
maneuvering.
Robey
Over G Pulling for a Shot on a Viper by Sean Long F-15E
Over G Pulling for a Shot on a Viper
From: “Sean A. Long”
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:02:49 -0600
Bubba Wolford wrote:
>
> Figures that you called yourself “Target driver” Robey!!
>
> I bet you kicked the shit out of those Eagle drivers when you flew right?
> Sean, how about it?
Well, the only time I’ve ever overG’d my plane was pulling for guns on a
viper… He had no energy, I had too much, and he died anyhow since I
got a couple of aim-9’s into him already, but I wanted the gun cam
footage :)
eagl
Why a Phantom Sim would be Cool…OH MY…Robey former Phantom/F-16 Pilot 4Parts
From: Robey Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 17:06:53 -0500
> Katana wrote about the Phantom:
> > Pretty unmaneuverable? then why was it used for airshows?
> > It was a pretty amazing aircraft considering it sizeKatana the Rhino is pretty maneuverable compared to an F-104, or F-105,
or F-111, Foxbat. But had a huge turn circle.
Robin G. Kim wrote in response:
> [about using F-4s in airshows] Good looks?
> Exceptionally high T/W for its time?
Good?….make that GREAT! It was awesome…”Double Ugly”…I think the
appeal was the noise and it’s success in SEA (just MO).
> Perhaps it was more maneuverable than I thought,
> but by all accounts it was still not a
> match for Vietnam-era MiGs in a turning fight.
Phantoms with leading edge slats were the most maneuverable. Hey even
Thud guys got a few gun kills on turning MiGs (28 Thud kills 3 by Weasel
crews)…but I agree that a turning fight is NOT the way to live in a
Phantom. If a Phantom and Hornet/Viper pass beak to beak, the Viper will
be “saddled up” within 360 degrees of turn (witnessed it from both
perspectives)
An accurate Phantom flight model would be most interesting…it would
require players to own/use rudder pedals. At high AOA you must use
rudders to roll/change your lift vector…failure to do so would result
in a “departure from controlled flight.”
And…if you select AB (USAF)/Zone 4 (USN)/ Reheat (RAF/RN) while low
and fast you stand a very high chance of getting into a nasty PIO. Just
be ready for it.
Robey
Why a Phantom Sim would be Cool…OH MY… Part 2
Robin G. Kim wrote:
> THAT’S A DAMN LIE!
Gee…Rob have we met in RL? Been talking to my personal bud Paul Hinds?
> What kind of crazy Phantom pilot would not unload and
> extend after a head-on pass with a Hornet or Viper? ;^)
LOL…there are two expressions that come to mind…
1) Dumb
2) “Fangs out, Hair on Fire”
Make that three expressions…
3) “All Dick and No Forehead!”
> >And…if you select AB (USAF)/Zone 4 (USN)/ Reheat (RAF/RN) while low
> >and fast you stand a very high chance of getting into a nasty PIO. Just
> >be ready for it.
>
> Strange! Do you know what causes this?
Why yes I do Rob, and thanks for asking (here’s your ten bucks, now hush
up).
The motors of the Phantom are angled, the burner cans actually point
below the waterline of the jet. So you get going really fast (in mil
power) and when the burners “kick in” you get a significant nose down
moment.
Robey
Back to index
Why a Phantom Sim would be Cool…OH MY… Part 3
From: Robey Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 02:00:06 -0500
papadoc@ix.nospam.com wrote:
>
> F4 F4 F4 F4 F4…..Big Nasty Beast of an Airplane….ugly, mean and
> nasty….F4 F4 F4…please someone do a version that isnt arcade but
> that encompasses all the limitations and its strengths…..
wrote:>> F4 F4 F4 F4 F4…..Big Nasty Beast of an Airplane….ugly, mean and> nasty….F4 F4 F4…please someone do a version that isnt arcade but> that encompasses all the limitations and its strengths…..wrote:>> F4 F4 F4 F4 F4…..Big Nasty Beast of an Airplane….ugly, mean and> nasty….F4 F4 F4…please someone do a version that isnt arcade but> that encompasses all the limitations and its strengths…..Amen
> But one told me about doing spin testing of the
> F4 and how they would put rockets on the wingtips to stop some of the
> spins….geeez I wonder if he was pulling my leg.
So which leg is longer? The folks at Edwards AFB do put a mortar drag
chute assembly on prototypes and such to do spin tests. The F-4 came out
of spins fairly easily. McD put out a film titled “Unload For Control!”
> Said that at one point (been a long time) the decsion would
> come that the spin was unrecoverable and you had to eject…fun fun
> fun.
That would be 10,000 ft AGL…our young intrepid “Schlong” uses that
number today in his Mudhen.
Robey
Why a Phantom Sim would be Cool…OH MY… Part 4 final
From: Robey < lprice19@idt.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 13:54:43 -0500
(rrevved) wrote:
>
> >My DREAM SIM :
> > [snip favorite features of various sims]
> >*Comment: Flying F-4’s with the above criteria and a decent
> >Mission system (dynamic or not)would be SIM.NIRVANA to me.To which Flounder wrote:
> I second the motion!
>
> Maybe we should start a list with all thoose who want an F4 sim?
I’m in…and I only require a few extras which include…(okay I know
this is just a dream, but it’s my dream!)
Several different versions: USAF Ds, Es (both types), _and_ Gs, USN Bs
and Js with their COOL paint jobs, and Brit and German models. I would
want a recce platform (who wouldn’t?) using either RAF FGR Mk2s, the
BundesLuftwaffe RF-4E wired for bomb dropping or ANG Cs wired for
AIM-9s.
Training ala Top Gun with ACMI recorder…learn about adverse yaw
(rudder pedals required!)…learn USN’s superior formation tactics
versus crappy USAF vietnam era Fluid Four (the USAF discovers the error
of it’s ways). Learn the value of a gun versus crappy missile
reliability.
Career mode [at least opitional]…meaning that if you fly a USN F-4B
one mission you don’t switch to an RAF FGR Mk2 on the next. Okay so if
we in SEA and you’re in the 432 TRW, you might alternate between Ds and
Es (non-slatted of course). Otherwise you fly one type for a
career/campaign.
Theaters? All of SEA and all of Central Europe, with crappy weather.
(I’m not too demanding.) I exempt the Middle East due to F-22 ADF (TAW).
Hard Core Carrier Ops…even have the joy of flying the RN’s FG Mk1
(F-4K) with it’s very long nose strut. For those reealy hard core guys
that insist on flying as a RIO…no flight controls for you…you’re
just along for the ride.
[heavy sigh…]
Robey
Vietnam: is ace Cunnigham a liar??Robey
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:13:50 +0100
kaseyc wrote some really good stuff about the Vietnam Air War:
> a) American rules of engagement during the conflict requires visual ID
> before engagement.
Absolutely correct, rarely was EID an authorization to shoot BVR.
> c) It is common practice to TURN OFF IFF and transponders in hostile
> territory, and only turn it back on when you’re back in friendly
> space.
For a long time the Bad Guys (I’m USAFR BTW) flew around with their IFF
squawking and Combat Tree equipped Phantoms could EID without radar. In
fact at a longer range, the Bad Guys finally caught on from listening to
Disco and Red Crown transmissions…color coded bandit type by their IFF.
> I don’t have any data on “reliability” of Sparrows during VNW.
I do…it sucked. During Rolling Thunder 330 were launched and ONLY 27
hit, 99 missed, and 214 failed entirely. It was so bad that USAF shot
doctrine called for ripple firing ALL four in a single engagement.
A great book is CLASHES:Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972. This is a
GREAT book! It covers this topic very well. [ISBN 1-55750-585-3]
> HOWEVER, the advantage of a MiG is in its ability to TURN, while a big
> fighter like the F-4 would be using its superior power to play the
> vertical game. I think your Russian friends got VERY mixed up.
Ummm, Scream Of Eagles describes the advent of TOPGUN and how the USN
realized this early on, but my USAF predecessors didn’t know how to use the
vertical very well. And many USAF Phantom guys were somewhat leary of it’s
characteristic of “Adverse Yaw” at high AOA. The USN got better training
from TOPGUN and flying against the MiGs at Groom Lake…the USAF was wed to
the Fluid Four formation with the wingman stuck in a ‘welded wing’
position. In fact when the USN first flew against the Groom Lake MiGs flown
by USAF pilots, the USAF guys always worked the horizontal NOT the
vertical. They were Grapes for the USN Phantoms. The USN changed that when
they flew the MiGs.
> The tactic you described is internally inconsistant. If MiGs play “on
> the deck”, and spend time to “zoom up”, the MiGs would be in serious
> energy disadvantage once they reached F-4’s level.[snip]
Actually that was the favorite MiG-21 tactic…and they succeeded in
avoiding Phantom radars because the USAF was flying in rigid Pod formations
to protect against SAMs. MiG-21s [one pair] would also orbit at high
altitude and then get vectored behind and “make sequential diving attack[s]
at very high speed, firing their Atolls at about one mile.” [Clashes pg
142]
> American records of hostile aces are compiled by “eyewitness” reports.
> Thirteen kills were “credited” to this “Colonel Tomb”. That doesn’t
> necesarily mean that this man actually shot down 13 planes.
Yep, current evidence (thinking) is that Tomb or Toon was just a propaganda
name. Neither name is authentic Vietnamese (or so the current evidence
says). And the 13 planes is belived to be how many that airplane achieved.
As far as Shaw or Cunningham being called liars….hmmm, I think the
evidence supports Cunningham and Driscoll shot down a very worthy adversary
whatever his name.
This may not be the correct NG…but it’s a interesting topic to me.
Robey
Back to index
The Difficulties of simulating what a pilot actually see’s. (The Itsy Bitsy Plane ….for my Flanker buds) by Sean Long
The Difficulties of simulating what a pilot actually see’s.
(The Itsy Bitsy Plane …. for my Flanker buds)
Sean Long < seanlong@nospam.micron.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:41:35 -0700
Denny Atkin wrote:
> I’ve had the pleasure of flying multiplayer sims with a number of real fighter
> pilots. They’ve never griped about the flight models or weapons modeling. What
> bugged the hell out of them was only having the monitor in front of them to
> look through… Even the best padlocks or view system can’t match the
> flexibility of the Neck/Eyeball combo.I agree wholeheartedly about the view systems. IMHO the greatest
limitation of WB for example, is the technology available for viewing.
I have dozens of RL flights doing BFM and ACM, and I KNOW how hard/easy
it can be to see things. Generally, initially seeing another plane is
tougher, but once you do see it, recognizing what it’s doing is
relatively easy. It’s exactly the opposite in most games. It’s easy to
see the bandits (dots appear), but you can’t see a damn thing about
their manuvers until you are within half a mile or so. Nothing they can
do about it without faking stuff, although the icons make up for a lot.
As for weapons… I played ATF and USNF a while until I simply got too
frustrated at the weapons realism. Having a percentage number as a
shoot-cue, and seeing the bandit defeat missile after missile just by
putting out chaff gets old fast to someone who uses the real thing. It
takes a lot of the skill required out of the game when if a missile
coming at you was fired with a 25% cue, all you have to do to defeat it
is put out 4 chaff bundles and maybe turn a tiny bit. After setting up
unlimited aim-120s and lauching a dozen or so at realistic ranges and
seeing them all miss with the bandit not manuvering at all, the
suspension of disbelief was impossible.
Other games have better weapon models, sure. Maybe I’m just too picky
about my games though, because the only game I’ve been playing for the
last 2+ years has been WarBirds :) No frustration about stupid enemy
AI, no frustration about missiles not doing what they are supposed to
do, etc.
Sean Long
WB: -eagl-
Why do F-16s have tail hooks? Robey
Air to Air Refueling, fun and games up high.
Running Away to Play another day…EXTENSIONS or How I learned to Love Energy….
Checking Six in a Real Life tm Viper…
A F-15E Pilot talks responding to the ever present question Which fighter is better in a knife-fight…. the US or Russian Fighters? Sean Long
Sean Long responds to the recurring question of why it needs to be right… and besides who the hell are we to question Realism…
So just how high can a F-15E Fly….a F-15E Pilot responds…not that this will make one whit of difference to the Flight Test engineers…
An extremely entertaining thread that had the side benefit of being extremely informative. S.James an avid sim pilot/airline pilot and Sean Long talk about F-15e Climb rates.
